Betty Clark: When I come in with the team and we tell them, "This is palliative care, and we are holistic care, and we're about the body and the spirit and the mind, and we treat the whole family," it, it changes. I don't come because you're dying. I come because you're living."

[00:00:18] Jessica Zitter: And don't forget colleagues need to comfort each other and support each other's spirits. And I think chaplains are particularly good at, at doing that. I think we can all learn how to do that more for each other, but Betty has always been, for me, a really important, therapeutic piece of my doctoring.

Sarah Cavanaugh: Welcome to Peaceful Exit, the podcast where we talk to creatives about death, dying, grief, and also life. I'm Sarah Cavanagh, and my guests today are Dr. Jessica Zitter and Chaplain Betty Clark. They've spent over a decade caring for patients together. Dr. Zitter is a critical and palliative care physician, and Betty is the chaplain at Highland Hospital in Oakland, California. Their partnership is at the heart of the documentary, “The Chaplain and the Doctor,” and in our conversation today, we explore what it means to treat the body and the spirit. Betty explains why she doesn't walk into a room because someone is dying, but because they are still living, while Jessica reflects on how Betty has changed the way she doctors. They also talk about generational trauma, decoding empathy, and how science can make room for the soul

[00:01:27] Sarah Cavanaugh: Welcome to Peaceful Exit

[00:01:29] Betty Clark:Thank you

[00:01:29] Sarah Cavanaugh: So where are you on the planet?

[00:01:31] Betty Clark:I'm, um, I feel like I'm two places. I'm at work at Highland. This is lunchtime, and I'm at Dr. Zitter's house. Jessica.

Jessica Zitter: Jessica — in Oakland.

[00:01:44] Sarah Cavanaugh: So let's start by hearing how the two of you met, how your career and life paths brought you together, and to where you are now.

[00:01:54] Betty Clark:I came to work at Highland Hospital on the palliative care team in 2011. Shortly after that, I met Jessica. We were in the old hospital building, and I'm on the palliative care team, so it's doctors, chaplains, social workers, and so that's how we met.

Jessica Zitter: At, at the beginning, I was mostly working in the ICU and doing a little bit around palliative care, and then I started doing more work in palliative care and still in the ICU, and that's when Betty and I really started to work together.

[00:02:23] Sarah Cavanaugh: Betty, can you talk about the role of the chaplain as part of the care team and how you were trained to understand it, and how you've brought your own approach to hospital chaplaincy?

[00:02:34] Betty Clark:I started my chaplaincy work in a hospice, and I was a hospice chaplain for 16 years. It wasgood. I was trained by a wonderful woman. But when I came to palliative care, I realized that it was not the same because as a chaplain, we are spiritual clinicians. We work on the spirit as the doctors work on the body. That should happen together, and it didn't in hospice. And so when I came to palliative care and was on the team and realized that I was really a colleague and not an individual working, it made a big difference in, not just in my work but in my life. I felt appreciated and I felt my worth

[00:03:17] Sarah Cavanaugh: So what's been the driving force behind your work?

Betty Clark: Oh, I love caring for people. I love opening up and being opened up with people to know that it's not about religion, any particular religion at all. I say religion is something that people practice, and there's all kinds of practices. Faith is something people believe, and there's all kinds of beliefs. But spirit is something that people are. Everyone has a spirit. And so I enjoy helping people find that strength in their spirit to help them fight whatever is going on in the body

Sarah Cavanaugh: What did chaplaincy training teach you about death and about grieving?

[00:04:02] Betty Clark:Whenever a person loses anything, they grieve. It can be a body part, or it can be the use of a body part, or it can be the use of themselves, not being able to get up and take care of themselves. That's grief. Any loss is grief. And they lose their relationships with their friends because they can't do the things they used to do. They lose the relationships with their families. They become dependent. All of that's grief.

[00:04:28] Sarah Cavanaugh: How would you define it?

[00:04:29] Betty Clark: Grief is that part of us that hurts. When I do grief counseling, I always ask, "What part do you feel the pain? Where do you feel the pain?" And sometimes it's in the chest, sometimes it's in the head, sometimes it's in the back. You know? It's in the body. Grief is, uh, body work.

Sarah Cavanaugh: I love that. Somatic. It's somatic, yeah. Jessica, you say when you trained as a physician, you didn't even know what chaplaincy was, and that you thought it was too touchy-feely.

Jessica Zitter: I wouldn't say that I thought it was too touchy-feely. I wasn't thinking about it much at all. I really thought it applied only to a small number of people, and that those are people who were different from me and, and that I, I wouldn't be able to offer whatever that was, and I thought that they probably wanted it. And I assumed it was mostly faith-based people and in our hospital, mostly faith-based African American people. And I just didn't think I had anything to offer in that realm. It wasn't in the same track as what I was doing. So I didn't have a positive or negative feeling about it. I just didn't pay much attention to it

[00:05:37] Sarah Cavanaugh: So how do you feel about science and spirit now?

[00:05:40] Jessica Zitter: Oh, so -

Sarah Cavanaugh: I mean, we'll keep talking about this for the rest of the conversation.

Jessica Zitter: Yeah. When I watch the film, it's very hard for me to watch it. It is. It's hard to be kinda open about those inner feelings, about the dismissiveness, about, you know, about the hierarchy on the healthcare team, about implicit bias. I mean, these are really not comfortable things to talk about. They're very — they don't make me feel great about myself. And so what I will say is I feel totally differently now. I've had tremendous growth and I feel that I've grown a lot in my career in a variety of ways. This is one way, which is to understand the spirit and how critically important, as Betty says, that, you know, spiritual healing is frankly oftentimes more important than medical healing.

[00:06:27] Sarah Cavanaugh: Again, I admire your vulnerability in that film. It gives us all the freedom to realize that we're all learning, we're all in this process together. Have you tried to refocus your own palliative care practice away from extending life at all costs and toward a more patient-centered approach?

[00:06:44] Jessica Zitter: That transition happened a long time ago. That, that transition is what brought me into palliative care from the ICU in the first place. I really felt that we were — I call it the end of life conveyor belt, that in the ICU particularly, although in many other realms of medicine, we just feel like we need to keep doing, keep doing, keep offering, keep trying, and that we never actually sit down and have a conversation about reality and about the fact that maybe we are approaching death, and about the fact that every single person dies. And that if we keep feeling like we've got something else that's gonna save the day, we miss opportunities. And so I felt that when I was in the ICU, and that's what brought me into the palliative care movement in the early 2000s

[00:07:27] Sarah Cavanaugh: Tell me again when you met Betty.

[00:07:29] Jessica Zitter: 2013. Both of us had just arrived at Highland Hospital. I came from New Jersey, where I worked in a public hospital there, and Betty came from hospice, and then we found ourselves on this team together. But I had really officially joined the palliative care movement in 2008 when it was really the first year that there were boards through the American Board of Internal Medicine. But I had been working with palliative care and trying to emulate or incorporate their philosophy for years before that.

[00:07:55] Sarah Cavanaugh: And why documentary film?

[00:07:59] Jessica Zitter: Total random, not intentional. I'm a storyteller. I believe in the power of story to change the way people think, to change culture. I was a writer. I am a writer. I do a lot of writing and essays in a variety of different publications, and that was sort of my medium. And then I just happened to see a film in our hospital that was filmed in our hospital that we all went to see together at the Grand Lake Theater that was so powerful, and it just made me realize, like, writing and reading is a powerful storytelling modality. But when you really get to show something to somebody and they can sit back and relax and not do much work but have a passive experience, that is when I think, you know, the, the defenses can go down and people can actually start to see themselves on the screen, start to see different ways of doing things, start to let the shame melt away. If I'm up there showing myself not doing stuff well, then everybody has a little bit more freedom to explore their own thinking.

[00:08:58] Sarah Cavanaugh: Betty, do you have anything to add? What do you think is gained by the two of you visiting patients together?

[00:09:04] Betty Clark:A lot of times when the chaplain shows up, the hand goes up, "Oh, we're not ready for that." When I come in with the team and we tell them, "This is palliative care, and we are holistic care, and we're about the body and the spirit and the mind, and we treat the whole family," it, it changes because then they're not looking at, oh, you've come to give me the last rite, or you've come to help me die, something like that. So yeah, it's— I think it's very important.  I — in fact, I would like a chaplain on every medical team

[00:09:37] Sarah Cavanaugh: I love that distinction of saying you're not walking in because it's the end, you're walking in because you're part of the care.

[00:09:44] Betty Clark:I tell them I don't come because you're dying. I come because you're living. We're all dying.

Sarah Cavanaugh: Yes, we are. Yeah, which is why I started a podcast. We gotta talk about this.

[00:09:55] Betty Clark:I started talking about it years ago with the End of Life Coalition, and, um, I got a lot of pushback. People did not want to hear, did not want to talk about death and dying.

[00:10:06] Sarah Cavanaugh: Do you feel like that's changed?

[00:10:08] Jessica Zitter: I was gonna say particularly in the ICU, which is where I come from. In the early days when I, again, early 2000s, I started bringing palliative care principles into the ICU. People really started to not trust me and to feel like I was going to let people die, that I wasn't, I was kind of going against my, my remit as an ICU doctor. One chief of medicine said to me once, like, "I think it's a conflict of interest for you to be doing palliative care if you're an ICU doctor." So it was really rough in those days.

[00:10:34] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. Do you find it easier now?

[00:10:36] Betty Clark:At our hospital it is.

Jessica Zitter: I think at most hospitals it is. I think palliative care has really made its way and made its argument for why it should exist, and I think many people believe and many funders have supported, including at our hospital, and I think that just the presence of palliative care has really made a difference. But I think there's a lot of work to do.

[00:10:57] Sarah Cavanaugh: I remember I was talking to a doctor who was training his med students to look at the human being in the eyes and actually communicate with them because med students were only learning to look at the machine and the numbers. And it was that more human approach, even in any kind of care, not just end-of-life care, but in any kind of care, to make sure that you're paying attention to the patient.

[00:11:20] Betty Clark:At the hospital some doctors still think that we're end-of-life care. Yes, a lot of our patients die, but we don't come because they're dying. We are critical care. So if they're critically ill and they need pain management, they need spiritual care, they need ... that's why I think every patient in the hospital needs spiritual care

[00:11:40] Sarah Cavanaugh: And not just the patients, 'cause there's a beautiful scene in the film where you're actually talking to the brother of the patient and caring for that person and caring for family members and anyone who's in the room. So, that was a beautiful scene

[00:11:52] Betty Clark:A-and that's our definition, that we come for the whole family.

[00:11:57] Jessica Zitter: And don't forget colleagues need to comfort each other and support each other's spirits. And I think chaplains are particularly good at, at doing that. I think we can all learn how to do that more for each other, but Betty has always been, for me, a really important therapeutic piece of my doctoring.

[00:12:11] Sarah Cavanaugh: So how has Betty changed the way you doctor in the room?

[00:12:15] Jessica Zitter: One of the things that I have really learned, just from watching Betty, is how important getting the story is. That everybody has a story. Your job as a healthcare practitioner is to get the story, or at least parts of it that will allow you to connect with that patient and allow you to experience that patient in a different way than you would if you just saw them as this object that you're kind of in charge of. And that has been something I've really learned. I've also seen the power of spiritual attention in the hospital that not only, you know, it's not just Betty who can give it. I can give that too. And I've started to expect that of myself, and it has really helped me to connect with my patients, to connect with myself, to feel like I'm doing something worthwhile.

[00:13:01] Betty Clark:I think people mistake spiritual care for religious care.

Sarah Cavanaugh: How do you find joy in this work?

Betty Clark: I love people. Uh, as I say, I love what I do. I love the hospital. I find joy every day, every minute. Walking down the halls of the hospital and people call me all kinds of things. Some call me pastor, some call me reverend, some call me Mama Betty. And, and that, uh, brings joy

[00:13:30] Sarah Cavanaugh: How about you, Jessica?

Jessica Zitter: Oh, well, I would say similarly to Betty, what gives me joy is connecting with people, is caring for people, letting them feel seen and heard, and also caring for my colleagues. It's not just my patients. It's really providing human awareness and connection to people. That, that's what gives me joy.

Sarah Cavanaugh: There's a very touching scene in the film when you donate money to a patient having a lupus crisis, so that she can afford childcare when she has to come into the hospital for tests. Is this a regular occurrence for a doctor and a chaplain to band together in this way and to show such generosity to a patient?

[00:14:13] Betty Clark:We give a lot of things, not necessarily money. I was talking the other day about animals in the hospital, and Jessica may not remember this, but there was a homeless woman and she had a dog, and there was a whole big uproar about her dog being in the room with her. And she was actually dying, and the dog had fleas and someone got some spray or something for the dog. And then Jessica and I got in her car. Do you remember?

Jessica Zitter: Yeah.

Betty Clark: We got in her car and went to the pet store and we got dog food for the patient. And then when she died, one of the, uh, residents adopted the dog.

Jessica Zitter: I have been, I guess, not surprised, but it's remarkable how many feelings people have about that scene. Pretty strong feelings. Some people really come out, we had a few people like, "I can't believe you would do that." And then we have other people who are mostly chaplains, I will tell you, who say, "Thank you for doing that, and thank you for showing it." And I will tell you that I did not want to put that scene in the film. Betty felt very strongly that we should put the scene in the film. And I really think that it's very controversial. It's not how we're taught. Maybe chaplains are taught this, but physicians and, and, and social workers, a lot of the people who are most upset about that scene were social workers. And actually doctors too. And, and some of the arguments were, "You can't do that for everybody. You can't give money to everybody. It's not sustainable," blah, blah, blah. And I understand that, but I really think it was important to show it for this exact reason, to spark this kind of conversation, to really think about what is our role for patients who we come across who are really struggling from a social perspective.

Betty Clark: And especially when we've caused harm. The hospital had caused harm to her,

Jessica Zitter:  I would just say that it's one thing — in the hospital, out of the hospital — when you witness suffering, you cannot turn off to it. You cannot compartmentalize it as, "Well, this is their problem. I, I'm gonna be sympathetic." There's gotta be something that happens in your heart and in your spirit. And when I walk down the street in New York City, for example, and I see homeless people everywhere, and I see suffering in such stark contrast to my life, I can't help everybody, but I do, I do help some people if it works in my life give them a sandwich or to give their dog something to eat. And I just think, I said to my daughter the other day, who lives in New York, I said, "The second that you stop noticing this suffering — you really need to make sure you don't lose that."

Sarah Cavanaugh: What you're pointing at is the complexity of the problem. It's not just health care. I think the team approach, as you say, is something that can start to unravel what are the complexities in this person's life that are barriers to their health. Betty, why was it important to you to put this scene in the film?

Betty Clark: First, because I felt like we had caused her harm. And she had made it clear that the only thing that she wanted,there was no other way to fix it other than to help her with this problem that she had. She was a giving person, she was a caring person, and she just needed a little help. And I, I think, like Jessica said, you can't turn away from that. It's not about charity, and it's not about just giving. It's about caring, and we cared about her and still do. And she's shown up at some of the film festivals. I saw her at the hospital not too long ago. She came back after that and brought pictures of her daughter's graduation. So I, I think she really wanted me to know that it was real, that this is what really happened

[00:18:00] Sarah Cavanaugh: Betty, tell us about your, early life and your family's history with slavery and medical discrimination in the American South

[00:18:08] Betty Clark:I was born, uh, in Kentucky, a year before the end of World War II. It was not pretty. And my great-grandparents, who were no longer slaves when I came along but had been slaves — in fact, my grandmother on my father's side had been born into slavery, and a lot of her sisters and brothers were. And my great-grandmother told me some of the stories. She told me about when Abraham Lincoln was killed. And then sharecropping was like one step from slavery, so you didn't own anything, you didn't have anything. The next step was to live in whatever quarters they had for you and sharecrop. And my grandparents sharecropped in the town. My father and mother sharecropped, and then I got married at 17, and my husband and I sharecropped. My grandfather died at 39. My grandmother couldn't take care of them 'cause she couldn't sharecrop. And she was my favorite person. I would get to go and stay with her. I think I was the only grandchild that she had any connection with. She died when I was 12. I always have a dream before someone dies. And so I had a dream that she had died, and then I got told a day or so later that she died, and I thought I did it. I thought I caused it, and that was really hard

[00:19:25] Sarah Cavanaugh: Did anyone talk to you about it and tell you that you were not the cause?

[00:19:32] Betty Clark:Nope. They didn't talk to children about death. We went to funerals, but they didn't talk to us about death

[00:19:39] Sarah Cavanaugh: So much of this film centers around your own traumatic family histories, Betty's with slavery, systemic racism, and Jessica with the Holocaust. How has living with this generational trauma informed your approaches to end-of-life patient care?

[00:19:57] Betty Clark:You live with generational trauma and grief, and it helps me to really be open to other people's generational grief and trauma. We had a family meeting at the hospital, and the daughter of the patient, the aunt, they were just very emotional and very almost violent. But in the room, there were three little children, and I noticed that they were just sitting quietly as this one person threw something across the room and turned over a table, and they didn't jump or move or get upset. And I thought, this is gonna affect them however they deal with grief and tragedy and trauma in their lives. That's what generational grief does. It informs our feelings when things come around that remind us or identify those traumas.

[00:20:58] Sarah Cavanaugh: And it impacts future generations.

Jessica Zitter: Yeah, and I will say my generational trauma is not just the Holocaust, it's generations and generations and generations going thousands of years back and continuing on to this day, in this country. My experience of trauma is very different from Betty's. It's isolating. It's lonely. It's frightening. We have very different lives, but we share that. And I do agree with Betty that, that having that in your bones I think makes you a different kind of person, makes you a different kind of healer. I think it can, if you let it, make you more empathic. I think that every single person, you don't have to be the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors or a sharecropper, you can be a person who can tap into your own trauma. That's where the healing lives. And I think, you know, I don't — I, I, I'm not saying we should all be traumatized. I'm just saying if we can reach into the places that are painful, if we can reach into the feelings that are sad and scared and filled with shame, we will just have more compassion for other people.

Sarah Cavanaugh: Was there any moment, Jessica, in the film where you felt anxiety or fear around sharing some of these struggles you were having?

[00:22:15] Jessica Zitter: Every single one. And I wasn't going to be in the film at first, so I-I didn't feel threatened because I didn't share. But then when I decided to be in the film and I really realized that I had to be sharing my, my life and not just sort of this side character, then it became very frightening. And, um, you have no idea, Betty doesn't have any idea how many nights I — sleepless nights, moments of anxiety. Yeah, I didn't know how people were gonna respond, so I, I appreciate it has been better than I thought

[00:22:46] Sarah Cavanaugh: Well, the film certainly doesn't shy away from race. Betty, you've described candidly in the film and today about the experience of African Americans in the US health care system. There's a scene where you help Jessica understand that a patient's reaction is not necessarily about her, but about so much more, and as we were saying about the generational trauma. How do you turn these tough experiences into opportunities for growth among health care providers?

[00:23:19] Betty Clark:It's not easy. I try to help them understand that it's not about them. That person who comes in that's really, really angry, they have had to deal with something, and that anger can sometimes be their protection. That lashing out can be their protection, that, "Don't get in my face, don't come that close to me" is their protection. And as we care for them, we can see some glimpse of warmth coming back and some kindness. And I have seen some go all the way to having a peaceful death after being so hostile and so angry. Um, we had a patient, we couldn't get anywhere with the patient, and the patient was saying that he had a pastor at Jack in the Box. We tried to find someone who could speak for the patient or — finally, the CEO came to my office, and I, as he was leaving, I said, "Can I tell you about a patient?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "This patient's been in the hospital two weeks, hasn't had a shower. The bed is dirty from his dirty body, and he throws his plates on the floor, but he eats all the food." And I said, "He's ho- he's been homeless, and he says he's hungry all the time," because when a person is homeless like that, they don't know where their next meal's gonna come from, so they're always hungry, always wanting food. He said, "I'll, I'll see about it, Betty." That night, the patient got a shower, he got food at his tray all the time, so they kept food there so that he would never feel like he was gonna be hungry. And the next day, he was more coherent. He helped us. We found someone who knew him, actually found the pastor he was talking about at Jack in the Box, and just made a big difference in his life because his trauma became a part of his healing. It became a part of his getting care. If we care, it makes a difference

[00:25:22] Sarah Cavanaugh: So Betty, there's a wonderful scene where you gather your family to talk about exactly what you want at the end of your life. You're clear, you're direct, there's no confusion. Where and how do you think people should start with such conversations?

[00:25:36] Betty Clark:I think they should start without the paper. I think they should just start talking to their families about what they want and what they don't want. I learned that from my mother. And when she went to the hospital and she had heart and lung, and so the doctor called us and said, all five children, and we were scattered around, we all got on the phone, and he said, "This is what's going on with your mom, only thing we can do is send her home with hospice." And we said, "Send her home." That's what she wanted. We get patients and families that have had no conversation, so it's this total confusion. Now, I didn't want my family to go through that. I'd had a diagnosis of an aneurysm in my head that was inoperable, the doctors actually told me I should talk to my family. And so that's why that came about. Of course, working in the hospital with palliative care and seeing all of the things that — doctors want to cure everything, and everything can't be cured. But healing comes without curing. That's what I want. I want healing for myself and for my family.

[00:26:51] Sarah Cavanaugh: Such a powerful scene in the film when you share your health scare. I know you decided to dial back your work. How often do you two work together now?

[00:27:02] Jessica Zitter: I have not been in the hospital for about a year. I mean, this was a full-time job to finish this film, to edit this film, and now to distribute the film and to create curricula around the film, which is our plan. Uh, we're gonna be working with a bunch of medical schools to further develop curricula around scenes in the film that I will develop, and then to really work to pilot them, evaluate them, and then once we show that these are impactful, to really try to get them into every medical school that we can, and chaplaincy eventually, but I'm starting with the medical schools 'cause I think doctors are a big lever for change in hospitals.

Betty Clark: And I, I think, I think chaplains are, because I, I really think that we're all human, one race, human. If chaplains can find their voice and know their worth, they can help doctors with the change.

Jessica Zitter: The thing I will say, and Betty's heard me say this many times, is there is a hierarchy in hospitals. The doctors are the people who dictate the culture, I think. You may disagree, but it's a rare hospital-

Betty Clark: No, I agree.

Jessica Zitter: But it's a rare hospital where the chaplains dictate the culture, and so that's why I feel that this really needs to start with the doctors. I mean, we're gonna do all of it, but it's, like, we're a small team, so we can't do everything at once.

[00:28:23] Sarah Cavanaugh: What does a peaceful exit mean to you? And Jessica, maybe you start.

[00:28:30] Jessica Zitter: Oh boy. Well, I've thought about it a lot. When I'm dying, when I'm actually dying, I want to be in a safe place that I recognize. I want my family to be around me. I want my animals to be around me, in the bed with me. I want people holding my hand. I don't want to be alone. I want tobe clean. I don't want people force-feeding me. I definitely don't want to be in an ICU if I'm dying. The thing that's tricky these days, and it's getting trickier and trickier, is that there are breakthroughs with certain medications and procedures that we haven't seen before. And so many of us in the palliative care movement who have been, I would say, I'm speaking for myself, a little arrogant in our feelings of confidence about predicting that someone's dying — I think should and must look at how we approach when dying is actually happening. And it's very, it's very complicated, and I don't wanna sound like, "Oh, everyone's gonna get some miracle cure," 'cause that's obviously not gonna happen. It's a little bit more complicated now than it used to be.

Sarah Cavanaugh: Okay, Betty, what does a peaceful exit mean to you?

Betty Clark: It means being able to feel I have worked the work that I feel I've been assigned and feel a sense of completeness and accomplishment. And then, of course, all of the great-grands and, and grandchildren and all, I want them all to be comfortable. It's not about, some people say, "I don't want anybody coming in crying." It's not like that. I just want them to, I want them to feel Grandma, Nana, Mama, she lived her life. She lived a good life. She lived what she wanted and we're grateful. I want them to be grateful. My daughter said the other day, she says, "Mom, be careful what you ask for. You might get it." And so I said, "Well, I haven't seen a lot of my great-grands lately, and I don't want them to forget who I am." And then she came home with seven of them. There's 24.

Jessica Zitter: That's so cute.

Betty Clark: There's 24 of them, But she came home with seven, and she said, "But be careful what you..." And they spent the night.

Jessica Zitter: Oh, that's cute. Well, I — listening to Betty talk about what she wants as a peaceful exit makes me feel like I was being self-centered because I'm talking about all the things I want, but of course, I want for my family also to have peace and feel like they did the right thing, and for me to feel that there's nothing bad, no bad threads in any relationships, that there's a sense of completeness and everyone else feels that they are letting me go with them feeling peaceful about our relationship.

Betty Clark: I've done this when I was doing hospice with a family where the grandpa was dying, and they said he always gave advice to his children, grandchildren, and so forth. I said, "Well, he can still do that. So get him some cards and envelopes and have him write to his grandson when he graduates, to his granddaughter when she gets married, and so they can open this up and have grandpa's words of wisdom for them." And I think I'm gonna do that as well.

Jessica Zitter: You gotta write your book.

Betty Clark: I gotta write my book.