Suzanne O'Brien: Forgiveness plays a huge role in this moment. Forgiveness of yourself, forgiveness of others. When I was seeing the transformations that my end of life patients were having with using the power of forgiveness — like night and day. And they led to the most beautiful end of lives I've ever seen.

Sarah Cavanaugh: Welcome to Peaceful Exit, the podcast where we talk to creatives about death, dying grief, and also life. I'm Sarah Cavanaugh and my guest today is former hospice nurse, Suzanne O'Brien, author of the book, “The Good Death.” As the founder of the Doulagivers Institute, Suzanne has trained thousands of people around the world in end of life care with a mission to make death literacy accessible to all. She believes that dying is not just a medical event, but a sacred transition — one that can be met with preparation, presence, and even peace. In this conversation, Suzanne shares what she has learned from decades at the bedside of dying people, how to diminish [00:01:00]fear of the natural dying process, and why granny pods matter now more than ever.

Welcome to Peaceful Exit.

Suzanne O'Brien: Thank you so much for having me.

Sarah Cavanaugh: You know, we share a desire to talk about this taboo subject, and it's infused with fear in our culture. You open your book “The Good Death” with a description of just that: what is a good death.

Suzanne O'Brien: I was in the oncology unit and I remember most end-of-lifes, as they are today, not going as well as they could. And I'm being very gentle when I say that. And there was this one woman that I had at the end of life, and I walked into her room, she was transitioning and her family was just gathered around her bed. And I stood back as that nurse, and there was just, there was a feeling in that room of sacredness. And yet it was a hospital room with, you know, the, just the white walls and just, not exactly the warm place that we probably want our end of life. But there was something happening there. And the family was just silently not saying anything but holding space for her in this beautiful transition out of this world. And the feeling that I got was overwhelming love. And I came out of that room and I remember stopping because most of the end-of-lifes I had experienced till that point as a hospice and oncology nurse were not good deaths. And I said, if people knew that, if they knew end-of-life could be like that, they'dnever be afraid. So I'm gonna tell them. But the other thing that I had to go down, the organic few patients that I had that really had beautiful end of lifes, a good death — I said, what are the elements? Why did that person have a good end of life when so many are not? And it was really that they lived with the awareness that one day they would have this natural sacred part of the journey.

Sarah Cavanaugh: Did you have any experience in your own life that was, less than a good death?

Suzanne O'Brien: I had no experience with end of life and which is I think another really teaching point in this. I remember [00:03:00] becoming a nurse and thinking that this was gonna be it, right? I had found what my purpose is, I'm gonna be a nurse. It's gonna be a helping profession. I'm gonna help patients and families and get fulfillment and it'sgonna be great. I found it. Six months into nursing in the hospital, I said, this is the worst decision I ever made. I'm pulling around med carts, I'm shoving medication into people, being timed with it. I'm doing documentation. I'm not with the patient. And I thought, what am I gonna do? I just went through three years of nursing school, student loans, I'm a single mother. And I heard a little voice that said, “go to hospice.” I have zero end-of-life experience, not a family member, nothing. But when I heard it, there was an expansion that happened. There was a connectedness that I hadn't felt before And the first day I went out to see hospice patients, I knew I was in the exact place I was supposed to be in my life. It was like the piece of the puzzle fitting.

[00:03:51] Sarah Cavanaugh: I had the same experience with Peaceful Exit. It came in that sort of an inspiration. Talk about the early days of founding the [00:04:00]International Doulagivers Institute. How did that all start? Were death doulas a thing at the time?

Suzanne O'Brien: No. Um, so it started, I've been doing this since 2008. End-of-life was not going well for most of the families and the patients. And why? Fear of death is number one. As a hospice nurse, I was there for one hour once a week. If that patient was stable, I'm supposed to teach the family how to do end-of-life care. That's the model, right? So people are at home. I'm supposed to teach them how to do the end-of-life care. If I'm there for one hour, once a week and they're petrified, how well do you think this goes? It doesn't. So I'm running around, I'm working after hours, not being paid, and I cannot supply what's needed to have these end-of-lifes go. Well, we, we don't have another opportunity to do it. After doing a lot of this work, I actually volunteered in Zimbabwe, Africa, as a hospice nurse. And it was there that they were taking me out and showing me that [00:05:00] they don't have the medications we have, they don't have a lot of what we'll call like, the medical advances. But they were taking a neighbor and training them to sit with the dying patient and family and hold space for them. And I thought, gosh, that's just like a birthing doula. What a beautiful thing. Because I knew when I was coming into the homes of families as a hospice nurse, the stress would go down. When I would leave, the stress would go up, and I knew that they were not at all prepared for this end-of-life.It's actually a cruel model at this moment. If I'm supposed to teach, as the hospice nurse, the family how to do the care, but I'm there for one hour once a week — why don't I put together a full training? And I did. I developed the Doulagivers level one family caregiver. I defined three different phases of end-of-life, the interventions to use from start to finish. And I — here's the story. I remember going to my CEO of hospice, and I said, end-of-life is not going well for most of the patients. We have to do more. And he said, we can't do more. That's all we can offer them. And I said, I have this idea. What about this training? And he looks at this training and he said, this is great. We can't do it. I said, why? He [00:06:00] goes, we won't get reimbursed for it. The minute we put a dollar amount and a time limit on end-of-life, we're doing something wrong. And I said, I heard it three times and I said, okay, I'm just gonna go to the local library and offer a workshop for free. Whoever wants to come can come learn. What do you think happened at that library? It filled up.

Sarah Cavanaugh: It was packed.

Suzanne O'Brien:: There wasn't a seat left. Yeah. And then I put it online and to this date, we've trained almost 400,000 people from around the world. So Doulagivers Institute was born out of that training and it is absolutely amazing.

[00:06:34] Sarah Cavanaugh: And it goes back to what you were saying about following your intuition, you're following the need, and it's, it's brilliant.  I loved your book, loved your book.

[00:06:42] Suzanne O'Brien: Thank you.

[00:06:43] Sarah Cavanaugh: Beautiful cover, by the way. And I always look at the title first. Tell me why you use the word “good.”

[00:06:50] Suzanne O'Brien: Yeah, I should have used great. No, I'm kidding. You know, the word death provokes a lot of fear right [00:07:00] now. It triggers people and to put the word “good” with it is usually something that people don't do. What I want people to know is that it is very possible with the right education, kindness, and support to have a good transition out of this world. We only get one time, we can't go back again. So I think it stops people when they see the good death and take that in for a minute. Death can go well? Yeah, it actually can. And here's the thing: we've been dying for thousands of years in all different religions and cultures. Death used to be revered as a sacred rite of passage. Where did that go? We can change our lives overnight when we change our perspective. I really wanted the cover image to be what's in that book and what's possible. And when we see trees, they turn the most magnificent, beautiful color, the leaves, right [00:08:00] before they die. This is the same that I see with my patients.

[00:08:04] Sarah Cavanaugh: Hmm. I love that. Several of my guests have talked about how fear of death prevents them from. jumping into this information or talking about it even. Kids are shy about talking to their parents about it. To what extent do you think fear governs people's behavior as they face the death of a loved one?

[00:08:23] Suzanne O'Brien: Um, a hundred, and I'm not trying to be funny about that. Fear is paralyzing. We are asking families to take care of a dying loved one in their home under their roof when they don't know the first thing about how to do that. How unfair is that? It is a overwhelming, chaotic experience. So fear literally hijacks this entire situation, and it prevents me from even being able to give the basic training to people because they're so checked out, it just does not work. So I'm gonna [00:09:00] say a hundred percent.

[00:09:01] Sarah Cavanaugh: I want to ask — do you feel afraid of death or after all this work, has it helped you come to a sense of peace about it?

[00:09:08] Suzanne O'Brien: Peace beyond. My fear is that I don't fully live. That is the real fear that I have, that what is my purpose? Make sure I don't miss the beauty of this day because I don't know how many days I have and I want to make sure that I have gratitude and find the joy in the moments, and also show up for my purpose. And then as far as when I'm working with people at the end of life, what they have described, what I have been privileged to see and experience has not only removed my fear, but has led me to believe that this is the hard part. That whatever's happening next, what they describe — may I share a story for a minute, that’s from the book?

[00:09:50] Sarah Cavanaugh: Sure, please.

[00:09:51] Suzanne O'Brien: I was in the oncology unit, I'm working, and there was a woman that came in. I was working the Friday, Saturday, Sunday, all those long [00:10:00]shifts. And she comes in on Friday, she was 44 years old. She broke her hip because her chemotherapy had brittled her bones. She had gallbladder cancer. She comes in with her sister on a Friday. And I knew I needed to build trust and get her stable. And they were so scared and, and she was the same age as, as myself. And it was so interesting because it really strikes you when you're dealing with people that are in situations of your age. It can happen to anyone at any time. At the end of the day on Saturday, I was moving her from a bedside commode right to her bed. It was just one turn and pivot and she was out of breath and that was something new for her, her lungs were fine. So we both knew in that moment that something very serious was happening. So they told me that they did testing that night, found that she had a blood clot, a pulmonary emboli to her lung from the fractured hip. This is not a good thing. On Sunday when I came in, I remember the doctor coming in at about three o'clock. I had a habit of doing rounds with doctors so I could hear what they were saying to patients. We walked through Madeline's [00:11:00] doorway of her hospital room and Madeline looks at the doctor and says, I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me. And I remember turning to look at the doctor and tears were going down her face. That night, that Sunday night, at about 10 o'clock, Madeline woke up from asleep and said, “Get my sister. I'm transitioning!” Like with all of the excitement that you would expect from an 8-year-old child that's saying “You're gonna go to Disney World!” Sister comes in from the lounge and she's like, “I'm transitioning!” And I don't even know if I knew the word transitioning then, I don't even know if I used that. So what I want to share with you is that within a few days, this woman goes from being alive to having an end-of-life. But what did she see and what did she know in that sleep that she was in that not only reduced her fear, but had her excited about the next chapter? And by the way, I have hundreds of these stories. People picking the time that they die, waiting for someone to come, waiting for someone to leave saying, Suzanne, it's so [00:12:00] beautiful. Don't be afraid. So when you say, did it reduce your fear — it allowed me to know, Sarah, there is so much more going on in this journey that we have. And so I wanted to say, what is it all about? Why are we here? What is the bigger picture about humanity and purpose and leaving the world a better place and getting back to heart-centered guidance and kindness?

Sarah Cavanaugh: In my personal world, it's so interesting that you mentioned leaving the room because my mother waited until we all left the room and my father fell asleep. My father, on the other hand, we were there in the room when he died, so it really depends. It's all, you know, each one is different.

Suzanne O'Brien: It is. But I think that knowing that is so important

[00:12:43] Sarah Cavanaugh: You write about various kinds of good deaths. Is it possible for one person to have all of these good deaths at once?

[00:12:49] Suzanne O'Brien: So it absolutely is. But it takes conscious work. So in the book, what I realized when I was working with end-of-life patients is, yes, we are [00:13:00] holistic beings and there's four equal parts to us: physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. And each one of those bodies of energy requires different care, different healing,  So I, I break it down into categories about physical choices. Where do you want to be? How comfortable do you want to be? What's important to you? And all of that, and surroundings. And then we really go into what I've seen with mental, the acceptance of end of life. And I'm gonna give you what I call a doulagivers pearl right now, is that a mental acceptance of an end of life starts today. When I say, oh, Suzanne, one day, the journey will not be as you know it. Maybe I'm not, like, really happy about hearing that, but I get it and I'm like, okay, got it. Now emotional, and this takes a bit more of the work, right? And a little bit more of the courage. Forgiveness plays a huge role in this moment. Forgiveness of yourself, forgiveness of others. When I was seeing the transformations that my end-of-life patients were having with using the power of forgiveness — like night and [00:14:00] day. And they led to the most beautiful end-of-lifes I've ever seen. And then spiritual — where is your connection with your being, part of you, your heart part of you, nature? You know, all the things we learn. And then I added in a fifth one — and it's very practical but it's extremely important — is the financial good death. And this is what I see most of the time happening for families. Right now. we pretend death isn't going to happen. It does show up. 'cause a hundred percent of the time it will. And then the family, who should be grieving and should be taking this moment in, has to go on a scavenger hunt and has to try and figure out where are the passwords? How do I get into the bank account? I mean, it's terrible. And so for me as a responsibility to myself and my family especially is to make sure that I have my quality of life advance directive done, that I share with them how I want to be celebrated. Do I want a natural burial? And by the way, when I do these things of sound mind with clear thought today, [00:15:00] they save me so much money.

[00:15:02] Sarah Cavanaugh: And you don't want your family's last memories of you to be the logistics of having to deal with the detritus of your life.

[00:15:09] Suzanne O'Brien: And also don't leave it for them as this surprise Talk with them now. Let them get fear out on the table now. And so it doesn't put the responsibility on them to try and figure out — what should we do for her? 'Cause they'll never agree, families, 'cause fear is there. When they have a clear direction that I've already given themand the rationale why, all they have to do is follow that it gives them a roadmap.

[00:15:32] Sarah Cavanaugh: So things have changed over the last decade, it feels like more young people are dying violently. You know, we're in a time of some pretty scarytypes of deaths, like people going on school campuses and committing crimes and things. And it's my own personal curiosity about how do we help caregivers of those who don'tdie a peaceful exit?

[00:15:56] Suzanne O'Brien: So when there is a sudden end of life, in whatever [00:16:00] capacity that comes about, a friend, a doula, a family member — if you can try and help create space to slow that down. And yes, a violent death in the hospital has their end-of-life and you're suggesting to family, have you thought about bringing them home? And there's lots of people that can help do that. The gift that provides them is like I've never seen before. So that's what I would suggest. And I know it's a hard one.

[00:16:27] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. Most people don't realize they can bring the body home.

[00:16:30] Suzanne O'Brien: And that's what I wanted to just say, that everyone has the right. You own your dead, you own your families, you have the right, it's yours. So don'tlet anyone tell you you can't. And again, if we can get this information out sooner about all of the support that's in your local areas, the better. Because it's always good to have some idea. And so doulas are actually working sometimes with trauma units and with emergency rooms because they don't have the time. And then if a family does have somebody who died, the nurse can't sit there with them for [00:17:00] hours, which we want to do. Bring in that local doulagiver. It would be amazing.

[00:17:05] Sarah Cavanaugh: And you know what it's gonna do for those left behind. Even if someone is squeamish about keeping a body at home, what do you tell them about what you know happens to the loved ones around that body at home?

[00:17:18] Suzanne O'Brien: So I think what happens, and families have described this, that they feel their love of their loved ones sometimes stronger in this space than they have in their whole life. So somewhere that is saying to us, she exists. He exists. Wow. And so, you know, the benefits of it have been known for a very long time. And that's what I think is happening there. What a gift that is. Most families that I work with say the person died, what do I do now? They call the funeral home. I've had funeral homes come within 15 minutes, whisk that body away. The family doesn't even know what happened. They have no idea how to process any of this. And we think it's a shock that there's traumatic grief that people are stuck in. Slow it all down

[00:17:58] Sarah Cavanaugh: You're also calling [00:18:00] in the wisdom of the Jewish Shiva, where people are slowing way down and they're slowing down for a week. And able to process what happened, no matter the speed of the death in the family. And they're taken care of in such a beautiful way.

[00:18:15] Suzanne O'Brien: I mean, it's gorgeous and that grief needs a container. It needs a pathway.

[00:18:21] Sarah Cavanaugh: What has traditionally been the role of family and other loved ones as someone is dying, when did we start turning this job over to medical professionals?

[00:18:30] Suzanne O'Brien: When we started making these things called medical advances, and in one sense that's a great thing, but we absolutely forgot two things: keeping people alive and living are two very different things. And so when we made medical advances, in one sense, yeah, we can keep people alive forever — is that really the answer? So inadvertently, I think we set up this whole incredible fear and it really started with that we know how to tinker as medical professionals and keep bodies alive. But keeping alive and living [00:19:00] are two very different things and we're not meant to live forever.

[00:19:04] Sarah Cavanaugh: I had a wonderful conversation with Mary Roach, who has seen a lot of dead bodies, and what she really came out with was the miracle of the human body. There's nothing that can replace it. We might try, uh, 3D-printing living tissue, but you can't really replace who we are and what this body, how this body works. It'sincredible. Talk to us about the Live Well Aging plan.

[00:19:28] Suzanne O'Brien: You know, a hundred years ago, the life expectancy was about 47, 48. And so now that we're living so very long, there's no roadmap for that. I don'tknow how long I'm gonna live, A, what I'm gonna be like as I age cognitively, physically. I'm gonna try, you know, to hopefully have everything great and financially you just don't know, 'cause the world does what it does. So we want people to have, think about the Plan A — if I needed some form of assistance, if I had some issues. You know, there used to be [00:20:00] multi-generational living, where it was just known that mom and dad, as they age, are gonna live in the house. We'll have our eyes on them, and that's a really, really good choice, by the way. But if that's not the case, then where is somewhere that's middle of the road? Okay. So I don't wanna intrude on my son's family and his life, but are they willing to put maybe a granny pod in the backyard? What's Plan C if I needed full-time care? If I didn't have finances? Is there an assisted living or some type of nursing home that is a loving home that I know that people are well cared for? And I have to say that that's not always the case as we know. So ideally, my concept of doula communities, bringing back the concept of community, taking care of community, once again. And then we would have doula houses where if people needed to be cared for, we can bring them there and be able to give them that loving end-of-life in a beautiful way. That really just [00:21:00] takes conscious effort. So make your plan A, B, and C talk to your families. Granny pods are a great option 'cause they're just a little house that can be attached —

[00:21:07] Sarah Cavanaugh: I love this idea.

[00:21:08] Suzanne O'Brien: Yeah. It's amazing.

Sarah Cavanaugh: Well, and what was interesting to me is the technology might be so useful. Oftentimes you'll have an alarm on the bed when someone gets up, you could actually build that into a granny pod.

Suzanne O'Brien: They're already built in. So you can get ones where, when mom's feet hit the floor, I'm notified. Okay. So I don't have to be on top of her calling her and oh, you're not picking up the phone. Um, some of them you come with, oxygen, accessibility if you needed it. It's really, really good. It's a great option.

[00:21:35] Sarah Cavanaugh: The other thing I think we lose by putting our elders in these either nursing homes or assisted living places, we lose so much of the wisdom in the heart of our culture.

[00:21:46] Suzanne O'Brien: What have we done? I think we just went the absolute wrong direction because if you ever have the privilege of sitting down with somebody who has had years of experience and listened to their [00:22:00] stories, it is the teaching. And again, for younger generations to be able to be having relationships with older, having that wisdom, it's priceless. Uh, by the way, I also wanna say that a hundred years ago, people used to lie up in age because the older you were, the cooler you were 'cause you were the wisdom keepers. I wanna bring that back.

[00:22:22] Sarah Cavanaugh: I do too. I do too.

[00:22:24] Suzanne O'Brien: Not that we need to lie, but let's give credit where credit is due with the numbers.

[00:22:27] Sarah Cavanaugh: You write about the end of life phases that caregivers go through: shock, stabilization, and transition. Can you define what these are and how people can confront and move through each?

[00:22:38] Suzanne O'Brien: When I was working with all these families, I literally could define phases of end of life. And I thought, this is really helpful because let's identify that phase, but then give them interventions to use in it. So to understand what it is — so, the shock phase is like it sounds. It's the first time that someone gets a terminal diagnosis and often there's an overwhelming feeling for both the patient and the loved [00:23:00] ones. And this shock can present in, denial, withdrawal, anger. For most of my patients, it's been withdrawal. It's been shut down. If somebody just told you that you have a limited time left on your life, you're gonna be taken aback in a huge way. It's really scary for people. It feels like the person has had a loss of control. Obviously their physical body, they're told that they have a limited time, so keeping that in mind, very important to show up, but to also not take control out of them. There's a three question technique that I'm gonna teach families to do in any one of the phases. And this is really important 'cause you'll always get to the highest quality of care. So within that shock phase, say to yourself, are there any acute issues happening here? An acute issue is an immediate need that needs to be dealt with — pain, nausea, anything that is jumping out. Are there any safety issues? Many times people come on at this terminal diagnosis and they can't walk for the first time. And so it's a big safety issue. And also ask, what is the support system? Because many times people have been cared [00:24:00] for by one person. Start getting a support system schedule that the main caregiver can have some respite care and be the wife and be the husband. So asking those three questions within the shock phase. Your presence and you saying, I'm here with you and I'm gonna be here with you with every part of this journey can be really reassuring, especially at this moment. So just take it in.The second is the stabilization phase. So when we get the immediate needs and acute issues handled really well, the quality of life goes up. Now I have to tell you that we've gotten some people, and this is insane to say, but it's true — some people's quality of life with good symptom management has gone up and it's higher than it's been in 20 years. This is where families can have those really important conversations: memories, legacy work, sharing stories, forgiveness work, anything that's really important can be done in this phase. Things are stable. And then the third is this transition phase. And the transition phase, as you can think of it as that birthing of the baby, that [00:25:00] active labor, this is the act of dying. And this can go very quick and be scary if you don't know what's happening. And I wanna tell you, the first telltale sign that someone's going into a transition phase is that they will lose the ability to swallow. And it's usually within hours to days at that person will go into a deep sleep coma. And it's usually hours to days — and I say usually, so stay with me on that one — usually in that deep sleep coma that the body will have its end of life. Everyone dies the same way in that latter part. So there's steps in stages that you can understand, and you can know that the interventions used for comfort or knowing that this is a natural part of the end of life process and not to be afraid. 'cause so many families haven't seen any of this. So they're just petrified and overwhelmed when they don't need to be.

[00:25:45] Sarah Cavanaugh: Oftentimes there are sounds that they're unfamiliar with and they think the person is gasping for breath and they're not, they’re — it's actually part of the process.

[00:25:53] Suzanne O'Brien: Yeah, the body's shutting down. So the breathing, everything changes, the temperature changes, your color changes, and this is [00:26:00] all natural part of the end of life process, not to be afraid. And there are things you can do. If somebody's cold, what would we do? Put warm blankets on them,

[00:26:08] Sarah Cavanaugh: So I interviewed Patty Davis early in the Peaceful Exit podcast. She wrote a book called “Floating in the Deep End,” about her dedication to creating support groups for caregivers of dementia patients.

And you devote a whole chapter of your book to how caregivers can avoid burnout. You also admit in your book that you experience burnout yourself. In your work as a doula, how have you seen burnout manifest? How can those caregivers practice self-care?

[00:26:37] Suzanne O'Brien: I am so worried about our healthcare workers today in the mainstream system, and people in general that I worry about. Because we're told work, work, work, go, go, go. Self-care is selfish. All of the things. And that is absolutely untrue. You know, I was running around, as a hospice nurse trying to help everyone. And these are really intense situations at end of [00:27:00] life with a lot of pain and trauma. And so, self-care for caregivers and for people in general is mandatory. and there's little ways to do it. It's not like it has to be big. But you've gotta give it to yourself. If I can invite one thing for caregivers to understand and everyone to understand, is when you do care for yourself, you are caring for your family. You are caring for your patients because you're showing up as the best version of who you are. When we hit the wall in a self-care crisis situation, we need to ask for help. It's not weakness. But the other thing is if you see a family member, a caregiver, a community member caring for someone — offer help, offer to come in, bring coffee, whatever it may be, and they might be so overwhelmed that they can't even tell you what they need. Go ahead and make the decision on, I'm gonna come over, I'm gonna sit with you with coffee, I'm gonna bring in dinner. Um, we have a support system scheduler that's really [00:28:00] beautiful in the book and it has a lot of prompts for people that you can share that, when there's a need, and people can fill in what they wanna do and how they wanna help 'cause people do wanna help, they just don't know how.

[00:28:10] Sarah Cavanaugh: That’s right. And they're afraid of oftentimes even bringing it up. I'd love to go a little deeper about forgiveness. I spoke with Dr. Anita Sanchez about forgiving the unforgivable in your life, and you say in your book, forgiveness is the single greatest transformational tool at the end of life. Talk to us a little bit about your exploration of forgiveness in your book, in your life. What does it mean to you?

[00:28:40] Suzanne O'Brien: If I may, I wanna really clarify that it’s the most transformational tool at the end of life and in life. And so when I was with people at the end of life, and this is what was happening, as their physical bodies were diminishing, their spiritual body was growing. this is the point that I call that they get their spiritual eyes or their spiritual wisdom. And they were able, at this [00:29:00] point, organically to look at their life through a different lens, and it led to the most, like, luminescent, unbelievable end-of-lifes on so many levels, plus the healing amongst family members if there were other people involved. And so when I saw that, I said, oh my goodness. look at that from that transformation. What am I holding onto? Am I holding onto things that I regret, choices that I made that I wish I made different? By the way, there is no judgment, and welcome to the human being experience. I want that. I want that clarity. I want that flow and that peace that these people are sharing is possible.

[00:29:35] Sarah Cavanaugh: What happens to someone when you say, “I forgive you, please forgive me.”

[00:29:41] Suzanne O'Brien: The forgiveness is not for the other person. It's for you. This is about your journey about forgiveness. But don't wait for the end of life. Do things now.

[00:29:51] Sarah Cavanaugh: I remember a little aha moment in your book when you said you can write your own eulogy. I hadn't thought of that.

[00:29:57] Suzanne O'Brien: When we were doing the audio book to that, I remember the engineer, [00:30:00] after I read an example, came out crying. Because it was so, it's so moving. So think about it. Your loved one's physically not here. You're sitting together, someone's reading a letter in their voice to you like they are right here in this moment.What could be more powerful than that? it's gorgeous. It also really, again, is a life lesson. If I'm writing a eulogy and thinking about how I wanna be remembered and what's important, I'm like, oh, if I wanna be remembered like that, I want to be like that and do that.

[00:30:30] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah, absolutely. It reminds you to do that while you're still living,

[00:30:33] Suzanne O'Brien: There you go.

[00:30:34] Sarah Cavanaugh: And also it's an opportunity to forgive someone that you're not safe to address it now, but you could write a forgiveness into a letter. Bring yourself back to a moment when there was a really good death in all ways. What does a peaceful exit mean to you?

[00:30:54] Suzanne O'Brien: It means a good life. And, you know, what does that mean? It means not missing it. I remember there was [00:31:00] an 80-year-old man And he had five children, and it was one of the wealthiest houses I've ever been in, not monetarily in love. You could tell that they had connection, they had a quality of life, and there was just such an organic peace. And at the end, I remember there was one daughter who told me he was reaching up and he was talking to someone that she couldn't see and he kept saying, “Are you here to take me? You look so young. You look so young.” And it was just fascinating. But she said everything was so peaceful. But what I mean about all of that was it wasn't just him that had absolute acceptance. And then they were able to care for him with what was needed. It was really wonderful.